Episode 505: Daniel Stenberg on 25 years with cURL : Software program Engineering Radio

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Gavin Henry 00:00:17 Welcome to Software program Engineering Radio. I’m your host, Gavin Henry, and at the moment my visitor is Daniel Stenberg. Daniel is a founder and lead developer of cURL and Libcurl, an web protocol geek, an open supply individual, and a developer. He’s labored on HTTP implementations for over 25 years, has been lively within the IETF for over a decade and labored on that HTTP stack and Firefox for a number of years. He presently works at wolfSSL. Robert, welcome to Software program Engineering Radio. Is there something I missed in your bio that you simply’d like so as to add?

Daniel Stenberg 00:00:50 Thanks and good to be right here. No I feel that’s type of covers the fundamentals, however probably I might add I’ve performed a variety of different Open Supply stuff as properly, however type of cURL is my child. That’s my major focus.

Gavin Henry 00:01:03 Glorious. This certain goes to be fairly totally different for me and for the podcast basically. We’re going to be speaking concerning the cURL venture, historical past, warfare tales, a great deal of various things so it’s going to be actually thrilling. We’re going to have a chat about 5 or 6 subjects associated to the cURL venture for round 10 minutes every. Let’s begin. Daniel, please take us by the 25-year journey, if 25 years is right, you may carry me up on that, of cURL and 10 minutes or so, or do your finest. Go.

Daniel Stenberg 00:01:38 Properly, 25 years, it’s. If we rely the tasks I did earlier than I renamed it cURL. So principally my journey with cURL began type of within the mid-90s, I work on one other Open Supply venture with a good friend, which was, it was an IRC bot. We name it a Dancer on the time. It doesn’t actually matter, however in 1996 or so within the autumn there, I discovered that I needed to supply a forex translation or alternate service for the bot for IRC customers. So I began to go searching on how to do this. And I noticed that, after all, if you wish to do a forex alternate, we want the forex charges type of moderately up to date now and again. I wanted just a little instrument to obtain forex the charges utilizing HTTP, as a result of I discovered websites that hosted forex charges on HTTP.

Daniel Stenberg 00:02:28 So I appeared round and I discovered just a little instrument known as HTTP GET that might do the job for me. And so, I began working with that instrument to do my forex alternate factor, after which I fairly instantly discovered some points with that instrument. So I corrected these and I despatched patches again to the writer who accepted it, after which it launched for what releases for that instrument HTTP GET. That first HTTP GET model I discovered and used was launched in November, 1996. And I feel Rafael, the writer that too, received tired of me fairly rapidly as a result of I saved sending him patches for doing extra issues. So I turned the maintainer of that instrument inside weeks, truly I feel. I don’t bear in mind precisely the timing there, however I used to be the maintainer of that instrument inside a couple of releases. I feel I did my first launch of that instrument in the long run of 1996.

Daniel Stenberg 00:03:27 So that’s 25 years just a little bit greater than that. So, I labored on that instrument HTTP GET for some time, till I noticed I needed to increase my forex alternate service with extra charges. And I discovered one other web site that hosted forex charges on Gopher. So yay. I want extra forex charges. I simply have to make my instrument help Gopher as properly in order that I might obtain Gopher too. HTTP and Gopher. So, I added Go for help to HTTP GET, after which HTTP GET turned a fairly unhealthy title as a result of it didn’t solely do HTTP. So it did HTTP and Gopher. I simply modified the title to URL GET as a substitute as a result of it could get URLs. After which by that point, the instrument would additionally work on URLs. That was one of many early modifications I participated to make within the instrument.

Daniel Stenberg 00:04:18 After which we saved it because the URL GET for some time; we launched model 2 and model 3 and known as it URL GET throughout 1997. After which I additionally discovered, I don’t bear in mind precisely why, I feel I discovered one other web site as properly, that supplied forex charges over FTP. So, I added FTP help. So now it might obtain knowledge from FTP, Gopher and FTP. And within the early 1998, I began so as to add help for FTP uploads as properly. After which once more, I noticed that whereas calling it URL GET, it doesn’t mirror the character of the instruments since now it doesn’t solely do GETs anymore. It might do places or uploads as properly. I needed to rename it once more. So, I renamed it to cURL and we launched the primary cURL model in March 1998. And I saved the model numbering from the earlier instrument. So, URL GET model three turned cURL model 4.0 there in March 1998. Then it might obtain from three protocols, add to 1 protocol.

Gavin Henry 00:05:30 The does the C in cURL for C programming language?

Daniel Stenberg 00:05:34 No, I truly needed to have a reputation and I’ve thought it could be enjoyable with the title that has a URL in it as a result of it really works on URLs. So, I figured I needed quick perhaps pronounceable title distinctive fashion. So perhaps C, may very well be for shopper. I figured shopper for URLs and C might additionally work as a type of should you pronounce it, SEE the URL as a type of extra of a pun-like factor. So, I figured why not? And I simply need the first aim was to have a brief, quick phrase in order that you may kind it simply in command traces. So, I went with cURL. I didn’t actually spend a variety of time with the title. It was simply, yeah, let’s go along with cURL and I feel it’s a fairly good title. So, at the moment, then in 1998, by that point it began in 1996, it was barely lower than 300 traces of code within the first instrument.

Daniel Stenberg 00:06:31 I don’t have the whole early historical past preserved. So I’ve type of restored a few of it, however the time I did the primary cURL launch, it was about 2,400 traces of code. And I feel it had 25 command line choices or so. And that was solely a command line instrument then. And we began engaged on that, or I saved on engaged on that. After which we received folks coaching out, submitting patches, and lengthening it an increasing number of. And the primary main change from that time was in the summertime of 2000 — summer time right here in my a part of the world. I re-modeled the internals just a little bit and supplied a library. So, libcurl was born in 2000 in order that we might present an API and web switch capabilities, principally, to others — different purposes or programming languages and so forth — as a result of I considered it from the start and I assumed it could be cool.

Daniel Stenberg 00:07:30 And at the moment I’ve type of made it occur. And once I did, one of many first that instantly adopted libcurl as a library was the PHP language, which I feel was lucky for us as a result of they actually had a variety of customers. They nonetheless have a variety of customers. They actually examined it. They actually received to submit a variety of bugs, they usually had concepts the best way to do it. So, we received it examined and it took off actually rapidly from that time. Properly, not like a rocket, nevertheless it type of step by step elevated poularity and other people began to make use of it. And from that time we simply saved on fixing bugs, including issues. We added extra protocols help over time. We added TLS help already earlier than we had the library so it supported HTTPS already again in, I imagine 1999. And from that time on, we’ve simply saved on including help for issues: options and a variety of totally different backends.

Daniel Stenberg 00:08:33 We fairly quickly determined to help a number of implementations for various protocols. So, for instance, we began with TLS help with the previous SS — I don’t even understand how they pronounce it, the precursor to open SSL: SSLE or no matter they pronounce it — after which we switched to open SSL, however fairly quickly we additionally began to help different TLS libraries like GNU TLS, NSS, and some of the others. And over time we’ve all the time labored on supporting a variety of totally different TLS libraries and over time, then we even have added help for a number of totally different libraries for different issues like SSH or IDN and title resolving and stuff like that. So, we had that type of infrastructure concept from early on to just about enable the consumer who’s constructing cURL to resolve what sort of third-party libraries they need to use after they construct cURL.

Gavin Henry 00:09:28 Thanks. Yeah. I’ve seen the choices while you go to put in libcurl or cURL; it offers you totally different variations of TLS libraries should you’re putting in by Debian packet monitor or Ubuntu or one thing. Glorious. That’s little bit of historical past. Finest you are able to do in 10 minutes. Have been you fairly an achieved C programmer earlier than you began in ‘96, simply earlier than I end off this part, transfer us on?

Daniel Stenberg 00:09:54 Sure, I had been working — I imply, I’m a software program developer since, after all, since earlier than that. I had been working professionally with C programming for a number of years earlier than that, so I used to be fairly snug with writing packages in C, sure.

Gavin Henry 00:10:09 Glorious. So now we’ve had that good historical past lesson. Are you able to consider a few issues for the following 10 minutes that you simply discovered over that point that shocked you, or may shock others, in these 25 years?

Daniel Stenberg 00:10:25 I’m undecided I’ve discovered a lot type of massive surprises. I feel I discovered all these issues that most individuals would study doing one thing like this for a very long time. For instance, simply studying the best way to write one thing that’s truly maintainable over time. For instance, clear code, feedback within the code, explaining issues to my future self, and stuff like that. And the worth of doing check instances, and documenting issues, and simply having smart hygiene within the venture, nothing of that’s stunning or unusual in any manner, nevertheless it’s while you work in one thing for a very long time, I feel extra of these issues truly grow to be essential since you get to type of uncover issues about your individual code and considering down the highway, as a result of it’s important to, while you dwell with it for such a very long time.

Gavin Henry 00:11:22 Perhaps what a few protocol that you simply applied that took for much longer than you ever anticipated and that shocked you?

Daniel Stenberg 00:11:29 Oh yeah however I feel basically, I imply, HTTP is my major protocol. I feel that’s the protocol cURL is most identified for, most used for, and that one I spent most time on. And I feel HTTP is a type of protocols that, yeah, it appears so easy. I bear in mind once I began engaged on HTTP, it appeared so easy to implement you recognize: simply textual content and simply kind GET and it’ll GET that. And over time you actually notice that HTTP — sure, it appears really easy on the skin and on the floor, while you see that textual content. And naturally, through the years, within the current 10 years, we’ve switched away from the text-based as properly, nevertheless it was by no means a simple protocol and it’s getting an increasing number of difficult over time. Implementing one thing in HTTP at the moment, it’s actually difficult — specifically, if you wish to help a number of variations. So yeah, I feel principally all protocols which can be well-used have turned out to be far more difficult in actual life and in the true world than I, for certain, type of foresee from the start. And I imply, none of them are ever performed, proper? As a result of we hold getting bug experiences at the moment on stuff we wrote and applied a long time in the past. Issues are by no means performed. It’s doing issues. Web protocols, networking throughout the web is difficult.

Gavin Henry 00:12:52 And have you ever been shocked on protocols which have come and gone or libraries that you simply use or stuff you’ve applied which have outlasted, how lengthy you suppose you’d have to help them otherwise you’ve needed to drop stuff over that point?

Daniel Stenberg 00:13:06 My major view of issues is that I don’t actually foresee, I don’t make any projections or, or attempt to inform how the world will look sooner or later. I’m the place we’re proper now. And I’m making an attempt to adapt to that and perhaps the place we’re going this 12 months or this a couple of months forward. I by no means tried to really inform what we are going to do within the subsequent 2, 5, 10 years at that, as a result of I discover it not possible to do this. However certain basically, issues stick round for much longer than you ever suppose when it reveals up. So after all, for instance, introducing new protocol model, one thing we all know that the previous protocol variations, they are going to stick round for a really, very very long time, even when one thing new, higher, shinier comes alongside. And in cURL we have now this idea that we don’t modify inside break API.

Daniel Stenberg 00:13:57 So API, we stick round, we help all the things we supplied previously as properly. I’m undecided I’m shocked that it’s extra of how the world works. And naturally, it’s actually onerous to say, particularly while you use a variety of third get together libraries, it’s onerous to say, certain, we will add help for a brand new third get together library at the moment, however we will’t inform how that third-party library will probably be maintained, survive or act tomorrow, proper? Or in two years or 5 years or 12 years, who is aware of the place they’re going. So through the years, after all, we realized that some, for instance, TLS libraries that we added help for previously, they largely perhaps died through the years after which we ultimately rip out help for that individual library or subsystem or stuff like that.

Gavin Henry 00:14:44 And the notorious query, I’m certain folks all the time ask us, are you cheerful of the selection of the C program in languages or language for cURL and libcurl?

Daniel Stenberg 00:14:55 Usually I’d say that I’m very completely satisfied and that’s based mostly on a number of issues actually. As a result of to start with we began, as I discussed earlier than, we began this within the nineties and within the nineties making a transportable library or transportable instrument transportable something, there was no actual selection aside from C. I imply, C++ might probably be in a selection, however not even C++ had a secure ABI again within the day. You couldn’t actually do any transportable libraries again then with C++, and I’ve by no means been a C++ fan. So I keep away from C++. So sure, I’m proud of C and a C has made it doable to actually make cURL and Libcurl deportable accessible in all places library that it’s, it’s C that’s the reason why it’s used and can be utilized in so many, many various locations, working methods, CPU, architectures, and all the things. I’d say it isn’t till very current years that there even have began to seem viable alternate options that would have been used, however they can be utilized now. They may not be used 20 years in the past. One of many advantages, one of many issues with cURL is that we have now the age, we have now the maturity we have now been round for therefore lengthy. So it has had the time to mature and stabilize and all the things. And that’s very massive factor too.

Gavin Henry 00:16:19 Yeah. It’s not one thing that you simply simply need to begin once more and a brand new language that’s come up.

Daniel Stenberg 00:16:23 No, precisely. As a result of no matter you do, it takes a extremely very long time to grow to be a extremely secure and strong factor to do like this. And I feel that’s one of many major advantages you’ve while you go along with cURL, it’s important to get all this battle confirmed time and have been formed by nature for therefore lengthy. And it’s, that’s onerous to copy or, I imply, you may replicate it. It’ll simply take a very long time.

Gavin Henry 00:16:48 Properly, that brings us properly onto the following part, which I’ve known as key occasions within the timeline. So, I actually just like the historical past and timeline doc that you’ve on GitHub and what I noticed on the mail record, it’s very full. Might you choose two or three of your favourite issues from the timeline filed? You shared, I feel it was December or final month, or perhaps discuss stuff you want you may delete on that record.

Daniel Stenberg 00:17:17 Properly, there’s a lot,

Gavin Henry 00:17:19 I’ve received a few my record then you may agree or disagree. So, I’m considering when cURL was on Mars, when Apple included at macOS, your favourite protocol, when the consumer base reaches a specific amount, the variety of bugs, while you received your first CVE safety factor, any of these?

Daniel Stenberg 00:17:39 Yeah, there was occasion. So after all, to start with, when cURL began, after all as something that’s began as a small venture, when folks prefer it, begin utilizing and adopted in numerous environment, these are key occasions. And people had been actually enjoyable to mark after all. When Apple included it in macOS in 2001, in September 2001, that was a extremely a key occasion for me as a result of it’s so, that was one of many first non-Linux working methods that really adopted cURL as a normal instrument of their working methods. In order that marked one thing type of a notch, an indication of success. So, I’ve that marked, and I assumed that was actually nice second in time. And naturally as you talked about, it was confirmed for use within the Mars helicopter mission in 2021. And that was a extremely enjoyable second.

Daniel Stenberg 00:18:31 After all, it actually wonderful ego increase. And one of many issues we’ve talked forwards and backwards within the cURL venture for a very long time is to get any sort of affirmation that cURL has been utilized in area? As a result of we’ve had that folks have talked about that previously that it would’ve been used on the ISS and stuff like that. However I’ve by no means had it confirmed from anybody or had any proof. After which lastly, after we received the proof that they really used it within the Mars mission, that was such a cool second to say that, sure, lastly, another planet than simply earth.

Gavin Henry 00:19:04 So, is that in one thing that was doing requests, however then an working system on Mars or coming again to the bottom?

Daniel Stenberg 00:19:11 They received’t inform. So, it’s actually not possible to say. I do not know. They’ve simply stated that they’ve used it within the helicopter mission.

Gavin Henry 00:19:19 I’m wondering what the latency is.

Daniel Stenberg 00:19:22 Yeah, I think about it will possibly’t actually be performed from Mars to earth utilizing cURL. I’d think about it have to be one thing shorter distance, however I actually couldn’t inform. And so they received’t inform so we will simply speculate on no matter it’s. For me after all, one key second in time is once I received the Polhem Award prize in Sweden in 2017. I truly received a gold medal from, which is an engineering award right here in Sweden. It’s actually an previous one, its over 100 years previous, type of handed out to engineers in Sweden who’ve type of achieved one thing, blah blah. But it surely was second in time for me. And I received that award handed over to me by the Swedish king on the nice gala dinner right here in Stockholm. That was superior.

Gavin Henry 00:20:07 Wow, congratulations. And the consumer base figures or bugs or safety points or was there some extent on that timeline the place you thought, what have I created?

Daniel Stenberg 00:20:19 There haven’t been some occasions when folks have stated one thing which have made me notice that, wow, the variety of customers is a extremely excessive quantity now. I bear in mind counting sooner or later in time and I noticed it could be a number of hundred million installations now. That’s loopy! And these days we rely someplace perhaps greater than 10 billion installations. So that you get just a little to the numbers as a result of there’s so immensely massive now it’s, it’s onerous to even imagined. However after all, I bear in mind stuff like once I realized that it was utilized in for instance, wow, it’s put in in most Android installations. And once I additionally realized, and it’s utilized by default iOS, then I additionally notice that, wow, it’s utilized in numerous locations. And I’ve these enjoyable e-mail interactions once I received that e-mail from, from a lady, I feel this was in 2016 or so I received an e-mail from the lady who, properly, she was confused, however she needed my assist to repair her Instagram account as a result of apparently I do know the Instagram folks as a result of she discovered my title in Instagram. And that was one of many moments once I realized, wow, they’re utilizing my code within the Instagram app on iOS as properly. These explicit moments may very well be just a little little bit of eye opening that it’s utilized in a variety of these massive quantity apps.

Gavin Henry 00:21:43 Yeah. It’s sort of thoughts blowing, isn’t it? Whenever you simply take into consideration all the things, not doc. So yeah. I observed that you simply hold monitor of the safety releases as properly. Are they various things or is that programming patterns that hold showing, or how would you classify these forms of issues?

Daniel Stenberg 00:22:01 I attempted to maintain very shut monitor of precisely all the safety issues that we have now had reported on cURL. And we have now this bag sure the place we reward the safety researchers who file or submit points which can be confirmed to be safety issues. After which I attempt to make it a extremely good effort. I pleasure myself to really go into the small print after which analysis it precisely after we insert the issue after we repair it and check out to determine precisely the way it occurred and how one can discover that and attempt to doc all of that. And a part of the rationale for doing that, apart from then later, having the ability to do enjoyable graphs and when bugs had been inserted or fastened, is that can also be a great way to attempt to study one thing from the issue. It was inserted at this level, that is the error, we fastened it like this, however what might we have now performed or what ought to we do now in order that we don’t do that similar sort of what even the, precisely the identical mistake as soon as extra? That’s actually onerous as a result of it’s like a traditional bug, proper?

Daniel Stenberg 00:23:05 When you learn it and after getting that report, you may oh, you notice that, sure, that’s a foolish mistake. Why did we ever do it like that? After all, it’s silly, nevertheless it wasn’t silly. Or not less than we didn’t notice the stupidity on the time after we inserted it. So, what do you study from that? So, it’s sometimes very onerous to really not view it as a one-off mistake and type of everybody makes errors. We are able to’t repair that. However then we additionally strive, I’ve tried to do sure issues within the code, like avoiding sure types of programming patterns. For instance, one of many issues I noticed truly, that we had a number of safety issues that had been the results of foolish integer overflows and reallocs or mallocs based mostly on that potential into your overflow. And I’ve truly performed two issues within the venture to scale back the likeliness of that ever taking place once more; one of many issues is that we have now these days a just about common restrict on string lengths of string knowledge inputs you may ship to libcurl.

Daniel Stenberg 00:24:13 Which limits string dimension to, I feel it’s eight megabytes, which is a ridiculously excessive restrict, nevertheless it avoids the possibility that somebody can put within the string that’s subsequent to 2 gigabytes on a 32-bit structure, for instance, or stuff like that. And we even have launched a brand new type of inside API and buffer system to attempt to make it scale back the variety of reallocs performed throughout the C code. As a result of I noticed that we had a number of of these safety issues in shut affiliation to reallocs and reallocs to rising buffers, rising reminiscence buffers. I’m making an attempt to keep away from stuff like that. So hopefully keep away from among the errors we’ve performed previously. Different issues we’re doing that we lately or we began in late 2020. I now labored with the ISRG who has sponsored a venture to help changing the inbuilt HTTP again and the HTTP coding, however not all of it, however a part of it with an HTTP library written in Rust known as Hyper. That after all, one other option to doubtlessly deal with or keep away from future errors, not less than see errors by ensuring that we use much less C and extra different languages than C.

Gavin Henry 00:25:40 That’s level to maneuver on to the following part. So warfare tales, I’m calling this. I’d such as you to now discuss among the onerous bugs you squashed or different memorable tales throughout the venture life if that’s okay? What stands out for you and makes you suppose if I did that, I can do something? Or we might drill into a few of these safety points a bit extra as a result of I just like the sound of what you simply defined, what you’re doing with that HTTP library layer. So yeah, if I did that, I can do something. Is there something that comes up?

Daniel Stenberg 00:26:11 Probably not or somewhat there’s a lot of that I feel. Bagging clever I feel doing issues, there are such a lot of layers of code I feel. In cURL itself there’s a variety of layers and other people, purposes, and there are languages. And I feel basically, we have now issues like languages doing bindings, doing libcurl, who’s doing issues. After which somebody writes an software in that language utilizing the binding utilizing libcurl was doing TLS, doing a protocol the place one thing is mistaken while you’re utilizing a third-party library. So, I determine generally it’s actually, actually obscure, or simply work out the place the issue could be, or there’s so many layers, so many various obligations, so many various angles it may very well be. So, I feel generally we’d actually dig round for a really very long time and a variety of code to determine the place it’s.

Daniel Stenberg 00:27:11 So I feel it’s widespread sample. Certainly one of my favourite ones. I feel I’ve a quote someplace when Fb reported an issue with cURL Fb, I feel they nonetheless use, they’ve a PHP model. Numerous Fb is written in, in order that they use libcurl from PHP. And whereas they skilled some sort of lag that took, I don’t bear in mind precisely. I feel it was some delay with some milliseconds in some sort of request. And I received it. I’ve saved their response quote as a result of the individual I labored with or communicated with then despatched me an e-mail and stated, I examined your patch in manufacturing. And it really works. And I figured that was enjoyable simply because testing my patch in manufacturing on Fb that’s appeared prefer it was a couple of years in the past, no matter was nonetheless, tons of of tons of of thousands and thousands of customers. And that was enjoyable. One other enjoyable little bug. I do not forget that type of stands out amongst different bug fixes is that I used to be contacted by an organization in Germany who was doing software program for some automotive firm and the one who contacted me stated that, “we have now 8 million vehicles ready for a firmware improve right here, however we will’t ship that as a result of cURL is crashing.”

Daniel Stenberg 00:28:36 And that was again within the day once I didn’t even work on cURL. So I used to be simply, you recognize what okay, thanks for telling me that. However you recognize cURL is a spare time venture right here, so I don’t know what you anticipate me to do right here. His subsequent then follow-up query was, “Are you able to fly down right here tomorrow and assist us repair this?” I attempted to elucidate to him, no, you recognize I’ve this full-time work. And I’m anticipated to ship one thing this week and I can’t simply take off in the midst of every week to go to Germany to repair your factor. I managed to discover a good friend who might fly down there and I might assist them from distant. So, we fastened it inside a day or two. In order that was enjoyable. However yeah, there’s been a couple of of these adventurous bug fixes through the years.

Gavin Henry 00:29:18 Yeah. What was the one the opposite day I noticed, perhaps it was on Twitter; I feel it was to do with the Log4j exploit, wasn’t it?

Daniel Stenberg 00:29:27 That’s the most important story. So, since cURL, I don’t know precisely why, however we modified the MIT license barely after we adopted the MIT license again in 2001; I feel we switched cURL to MIT license. So it’s barely modified from the MIT language; it’s only a few phrases that aren’t the identical. It’s principally MIT. However anyway, in that license file, this has copyright blah, blah, blah, Daniel Stenberg, blah, blah and my e-mail deal with. And that individual license file is normally included in numerous working methods, or merchandise or units, and about screens, on a variety of locations, partly as a result of it’s not an MIT straight off. So it’s normally acknowledged because the cURL license and different common. So, when folks bundle a variety of licenses, it’s nonetheless stands out as a result of it’s not among the many common MIT ones, it’s separate, its present one.

Daniel Stenberg 00:30:22 And it additionally normally then finally ends up as one of many few licenses that really has a private e-mail deal with in them. When folks ship merchandise or units and stuff, they usually put collectively a bunch of licenses, tons of of licenses isn’t that unusual, folks ultimately, or some folks ultimately discover my title and e-mail in there. And so they e-mail me about no matter downside they’ve that’s related that they’ve with their system or instrument or automotive or printer or something. Laptop video games is fairly widespread, too. So, folks have issues with issues they appear round. And normally, I assume they’re truly fairly upset with one thing and they’re frantically looking for somebody to contact. I assume in lots of instances, they already tried to contact 22 totally different folks. After which lastly they discover my e-mail someplace in there. After which I’m going to e-mail this man and he’s going to assist me with my challenge, regardless of the challenge is.

Daniel Stenberg 00:31:22 So I get a variety of enjoyable emails from individuals who need assist with points with their software program, the place I normally don’t even know what they’re speaking about. And lately I received an e-mail from a giant firm there. They really known as, I didn’t say that within the weblog put up, however they’re truly MetLife. MetLife is a extremely massive insurance coverage firm they usually’re, I feel their very own fortune 100. And so they emailed me a variety of questions on the best way to ensure that their merchandise aren’t susceptible for the log4J vulnerability. And so they known as me a accomplice within the e-mail, I assume they discovered my, my deal with in some sort of like that scanning a variety of licenses of their merchandise or one thing. And naturally, for me it simply turned out actually complicated as a result of I don’t do any java wherever and I’ve by no means participated in any Java merchandise wherever.

Daniel Stenberg 00:32:17 So, after all, nothing that I ever wrote has any log4J in it. So, the query was largely confused, however then as I stated, I’m sort of used to getting these sorts of questions as a result of I feel virtually the identical day I received that log4j query, I received one other query from somebody who he was upset concerning the participant decisions he received when taking part in some soccer recreation. I don’t even bear in mind the title of it, however that man requested me to assist him get higher gamers. After which he despatched me additionally a screenshot that confirmed my title within the license window of the pc recreation.

Gavin Henry 00:32:54 You must drill fairly deep to get the About web page in most apps. There’s some consumer interface failure if I’ve to go to the About web page and drill into licenses to seek out the contact.

Daniel Stenberg 00:33:09 Not solely consumer interface failure, I feel there’s additionally a common suggestions buyer relation downside, nevertheless it was additionally had a variety of automotive issues mailed to me and discovering my title in a automotive infotainment system that can also be it takes a variety of will, endurance to seek out it. It says one thing about how onerous it’s for normal folks to really get involved with somebody who did the software program for his or her units.

Gavin Henry 00:33:39 Simply earlier than we transfer on to the following part, it sounded actually fascinating what you talked about about bringing Rust in as a library. Will that imply that you simply’ve then received one other library to keep up that’s a part of the library, or how will that work?

Daniel Stenberg 00:33:56 Just about. Sure. Mainly already, while you construct cURL at the moment or libcurly additionally, we use third-party libraries for sure issues that we don’t do ourselves — like dealing with TLS, SSH, totally different compressions, and stuff like that. We’re already leaning on different libraries for doing a part of the performance. So, while you construct libcurl and ship it along with your factor, you already use libcurl and a lot of different libraries. When now we’re enabling or making it doable to construct libcurl to make use of totally different Rust libraries, you’re solely perhaps including libraries or changing libraries so that you go along with the Rust ones as a substitute of different ones, however sure, you’re definitely going so as to add the dependency and depend on different libraries in addition to on high of libcurl then.

Gavin Henry 00:34:49 So meaning the core HTTP performance will probably be moved away from C and into Rust as a separate library that manner?

Daniel Stenberg 00:34:57 Sure, however I’m doing it the identical manner as I do with all of the totally different TLS libraries just about. I nonetheless have a local implementation in C you could substitute at construct time. So, you may go, you go both with a C answer, the native one, otherwise you go along with the one in Hyper, the Rust one. So, at construct time, you choose which one to go, as a result of I’m a agency believer that I have to hold and preserve the C model as a result of as I type of talked about half an hour in the past, the C model is what makes cURL as transportable and as widespread in, in so many locations. So, I feel the C model goes to nonetheless stick round and be accessible and be utilized by – I’m undecided if “most” folks however lots of people going ahead as properly. And we’ll see how the Rust options go. I imply, if they are going to grow to be widespread and used and so forth, I haven’t actually no manner of telling or no concept how they are going to fare going ahead. Hopefully they are going to be widespread and used, however I actually can’t inform if they are going to be.

Gavin Henry 00:36:00 Yeah, going over the timeline of what the historical past of cURL that’s a very long time. So, you’ll simply must see, I suppose? Simply to shut off this part, you talked about the Rust bit to assist doubtlessly with some safety points, do a variety of the safety points. Are they explicit to programming components and C or nothing to do with C or a mixture or one thing in how the protocols applied that’s being missed?

Daniel Stenberg 00:36:27 I’ve tried to rely the variety of apparent errors which can be because of the programming language C and I feel it’s about half. I feel we’re going barely under half now, however someplace within the neighborhood of fifty% of the issues have been C errors. So, if we might think about that whole cURL would have been written in a memory-safe language, perhaps we might have prevented 50% of them. However that stated, we additionally do issues in another way now. So, I’m not satisfied that we’re going to see 50% of them being C errors sooner or later, nevertheless it’s onerous to say.

Gavin Henry 00:37:04 Glorious. Thanks. So the following part I’d like to speak about launch cycles and have request course of. Are you able to inform us about your launch cycle or characteristic request course of, for instance, how will we request options? How would you assess their suitability? And what made me consider this as the opposite day, you Tweeted about launch and the sense of reduction that comes out of that. After which an hour later a bug report is available in and also you’re like “Arrrgh!”

Daniel Stenberg 00:37:34 Yeah. That’s a part of the common launch cycle. Sure. So, I’ve all the time been a, been a believer of the normal Open Supply mantra to launch early and launch usually. And these days folks do this much more since a variety of software program today already are server-based or cloud-based. However anyway, I’ve all the time tried to do a variety of releases so that folks can get the chance to have the most recent code usually. So, if we repair something, they don’t have to attend round for a very long time till they, once more, the following launch. So just about we began out early on to do very frequent releases. And after some time, perhaps a decade — I don’t bear in mind precisely after we switched to it — I feel it was like 15 years in the past or perhaps one thing like that. We switched to a very time-based launch cycles. So, we just about simply set the clock and we stick with that cycle.

Daniel Stenberg 00:38:31 So, we do releases each eight weeks if nothing else occurs. So, we stick with that and we have now the primary half of that launch cycle open for merging options and doing modifications as we name them issues which can be truly doubtlessly including options of fixing issues. After which the second half of that launch cycle, we don’t settle for new modifications or options. We simply repair bugs. Then we do a launch after which we begin over, just about. I feel it has turned out to be fairly profitable as a result of it limits the pace through which we enable options. And it additionally, it makes us have a fairly very long time the place we solely work on bug fixes, which has turned out to be, I feel, fairly good as a result of it makes folks work rather a lot on bug fixes. And I feel bug fixes are crucial issues we will do.

Daniel Stenberg 00:39:30 And we stick with this every time we discover one thing actually crucial buggy throughout the launch cycle, we will make an exception and make one other launch with out eight weeks having type of being utilizing that as a cycle. And we do this now and again after we discover some horrible bugs that we inserted, however the preferrred case is eight weeks then launch. And normally we don’t even do emergency releases for safety fixes both as a result of they’re hardly ever that crucial. So we normally bundle the safety fixes too, and embrace them within the launch at that individual launch time limit. And having eight weeks like on the clock, it makes it additionally very straightforward to plan all the things as a result of we all know forward of time precisely the dates of all the longer term releases, so long as we simply hold the discharge cycle. We all know after we go to the characteristic freeze, we all know when the discharge goes to occur, and so forth.

Daniel Stenberg 00:40:25 So it’s additionally a simple scheduling factor for me, I feel. And for the reduction, I feel it’s after we work on one thing for eight weeks and we package deal all the things and we put it collectively and add it to the location that we will clean out the change log and say, wow, we begin out on a clean sheet. Now all the things is launched, all the things is okay, this feels nice. That’s an superior feeling to simply ship it then. Ahhh, that’s it. I so take pleasure in that second when all the things feels contemporary and new and everybody can improve to the most recent and biggest; that second is superior. And as you stated, just about till somebody experiences a bug within the new model as properly, or a brand new one or one thing unhealthy, or anyway, it’s nonetheless an ideal feeling. And when we have now performed a brand new launch, we all the time do releases on Wednesdays.

Daniel Stenberg 00:41:19 So we do releases on Wednesdays after which one other one, eight weeks later. So when we have now performed a launch on a Wednesday, we wait till the next Monday to open the characteristic window once more, however just about to provide it a couple of days for anybody to report alarming bugs, as a result of if there’s an alarming bug, we don’t open the characteristic window and we work on emergency fixes that, and perhaps we do one other launch the following week or so. But when we open the characteristic window once more, after that launch, we just about enable options to get merged. After which after all turns into the query, follows the query the place, what options will we merge when we have now the characteristic open? And it’s a little bit of a random factor. It’s just about what individuals are offering in ballot requests which can be in good condition, mature and we agree that it’s good change.

Daniel Stenberg 00:42:14 And mixed with somebody who is definitely additionally capable of overview it and settle for it and work with them or third, to ensure that it will get as much as snuff and being adequate to merge. I normally myself have a couple of issues that I type of hold engaged on that I need to have a lot myself. So, I attempt to ensure that I’ve pull requests prepared or in time as a result of I, after all additionally type of undergo the identical guidelines. I’m solely rising modifications when the characteristic window is open. That’s the one time I can merge options as properly. So I, and naturally I’ve a barely simpler probability to get my stuff merged as a result of I do know higher than most, precisely the best way to do it and the best way to do all the things accurately and have it accepted by everybody. However in any other case it’s a dialogue. I normally enable anybody to supply no matter. And so long as you may inspire it, then talk about or argue on your sake and on your options, we talk about it and we work with it and we ensure that we have now some sort of tough consensus after which go ahead with that.

Gavin Henry 00:43:26 Is it normally a case the place it help requests by get assist they usually’ve performed the characteristic they usually simply need to see or not it’s a part of the library or the cURL venture, or did they request that you simply guys might put into your schedule to do?

Daniel Stenberg 00:43:39 I feel we have now all the things from each methods the place it was type of the place and all the things there in between. Typically somebody reveals up with an enormous pull request that claims, I already performed this. We’ve used it for 2 years. Right here’s the pull request. And generally it’s simply folks nagging and say, why don’t you ever do that characteristic? We actually want it. Or one thing like that. And we have now all the things there and in between. After all, the perfect factor is when somebody is definitely working with us, the perfect factor is when folks don’t come there and submit the actually massive one. The very first thing we hear about it’s after they submit a couple of thousand traces of diffs, as a result of perhaps they did it in a manner we don’t fairly agree with. Perhaps they did it in a manner we might have performed higher to make the most of no matter.

Daniel Stenberg 00:44:28 So it’s higher to get that communication began early and see if we need to do that. What’s the easiest way to do it after which work with the staff to get it performed. However I, wasn’t getting a variety of good concepts from individuals who anybody who’s randomly utilizing cURL that claims, oh, I considered a good suggestion. Perhaps it ought to do that. And naturally, good concepts must be supplied first earlier than we will do something like that. Proper. So, a good suggestion. It’s a good suggestion. Even when generally good concept can also be it’s just a little bit too straightforward to simply submit the great concept, as a result of an concept is straightforward additionally, however perhaps they’re truly implementing the thought shouldn’t be all the time as straightforward. And along with that, I work on cURL full-time, I work for wolfSSL and this works as a result of I promote cURL help. So, somebody is paying me to assist them with use cURL or assist them do cURL accurately of their purposes and units. And a part of that, they’ll additionally pay me to assist them get options performed in cURL that they need. And naturally, that must be featured that I settle for and wish into the venture as properly. So generally individuals are truly paying, or I do work as a part of my paid contracts to land options as properly.

Gavin Henry 00:45:49 And have you ever ever needed to say no, that doesn’t work? We don’t need your cash or?

Daniel Stenberg 00:45:54 Sure, however normally it doesn’t actually work. It’s hardly ever they are saying one thing and I say, I blankly say no. If they are saying I would like this, and I feel it’s a foul match for cURL, perhaps we don’t must do precisely such as you requested. Perhaps we might do that half in cURL and it’s best to do this half in your software and we might work it by. So, it’s hardly ever a sure or no state of affairs. It’s extra of a grey space the place we will talk about precisely what ought to cURL do, what ought to your software do, what shouldn’t? So, it’s extra of a matter of discussing and debating. Oftentimes once I discuss to folks truly pay for this and it goes with whoever submits a pull request too proper? Typically folks ship me a variety of issues that perhaps you had been asking cURL or libcurl to perform a little bit an excessive amount of. Perhaps it’s best to take away just a little bit and do this your self exterior of cURL as a substitute. Or perhaps that is fully out of that course you shouldn’t do? However having labored with the venture for therefore lengthy, we have now to make a extremely massive effort to restrict the variety of options and restrict the expansion of simply scaling in all places. We are able to’t do this as a result of we have now to ensure that we stick with the idea right here and never simply department off in each possible path.

Gavin Henry 00:47:13 So if a listener, must an concept or an enchancment or one thing, how would you suggest they attain out?

Daniel Stenberg 00:47:20 Usually the easiest way to debate something is on the mailing lists. We at the moment are Open Supply venture. We use mailing lists. That’s the easiest way to debate concepts. For those who’re simply having an concept, if perhaps you’ve an embryo or a begin of some coach, truly you began to do one thing a change or studying an idea root than an idea, then perhaps you may submit a pull request. Right here’s my first shot, check out this. Would this be acceptable to you? After which work with us, perhaps inside that pull request, this can be a good base. Perhaps it’s best to do it like this. As a substitute, perhaps this contradicts what we’re doing right here. We should always rework and do it like that. And so forth and simply be ready to work with us and perform a little bit and forwards and backwards, after which go ahead.

Daniel Stenberg 00:48:05 Normally I additionally tried to ensure that should you actually need to see one thing occur, just be sure you additionally stick round for the follow-up dialogue as a result of don’t simply type of code at us and go away and are available again in two weeks. As a result of should you do, you’ll discover these questions or follow-up questions that had been filed half-hour after your pull request was made, after which it’s been lifeless silent for 2 weeks. For those who actually need to make one thing occur, be there and just be sure you comply with code fashion and also you’ve made certain that all the things works. You’ve gotten check instances, you’ve your doc and new options and stuff like that, and simply ensure that all the things is in form. Then I’d say it, isn’t onerous to do something, to do modifications in cURL so long as you simply do issues accurately and you’ve got some endurance and stick round.

Gavin Henry 00:48:55 Thanks. Properly, that brings us into the final part of the present. An odd one, however in case you are beginning cURL once more at the moment, would you, we did do all the identical or hindsight’s an exquisite factor. And we must always perhaps indulge sooner or later in our lives.

Daniel Stenberg 00:49:14 Yeah, I’d think about that if I hadn’t began it, I really feel like one thing I wouldn’t begin now, but when I hadn’t performed cURL or libcurl, another person would have performed it after which there would exist one thing else that might be just like cURL. I imply, as you described me from the start, I like web switch, web protocols. That’s type of what I’m intrigued by that I’m fascinated. I feel that’s enjoyable. And I, I imply, I take part in a couple of totally different Open-Supply tasks and I do another issues. And so other than cURL, for instance, the most important ones that I preserve as properly is LibSSH2 and CA threat tasks. They do SSH and DNS stuff. In order that’s type of the realm I’m curious about web protocols, web transfers. So, if I hadn’t performed cURL, if I didn’t work a lot on cURL at the moment, I’d most likely type of nonetheless be nosing round and digging round in community associated libraries, community associated code. So perhaps not cURL particularly, however I’d have performed one thing internet-ish not less than.

Gavin Henry 00:50:19 And what recommendation are you able to give after your hard-earned expertise for different Open Supply venture founders or those who want to assist with a venture like cURL?

Daniel Stenberg 00:50:29 Properly, for different maintainers, I don’t know. I don’t need to say the others ought to do what I haven’t performed, or I don’t suppose I’ve performed something magically unusual or great within the present venture. I attempt to lead by instance. I attempt to pay attention in what different folks say. I attempt to ensure that others can do as a lot as doable in order that I don’t must do issues, ensure that we will widen the variety of builders and everybody can do issues individually and independently in order that we don’t introduce pointless bottlenecks within the venture. I’m undecided I’ve succeeded in that, excellent. However that’s what I’m making an attempt to do. And we had been open for discussions and concepts and recommendations and stuff like that. However I feel all of those is simply the best way to, how any Open Supply maintainer would suppose and take into account Open Supply.

Daniel Stenberg 00:51:22 Engaged on Open Supply it’s a variety of working with folks. After all, you simply have to comprehend that there’s a variety of totally different folks and it’s worthwhile to perceive that individuals are totally different, there’s many various cultures. You must have a hard and fast recreation and handle folks someway. That’s actually onerous. And normally when I attempt to give recommendation to anybody who desires to take part in a venture or take part and do one thing right here with us, I attempt to get folks to work with one thing that you simply suppose is enjoyable or that issues you. Perhaps you’ve an itch to scratch. Perhaps you’ve a use case. You, you haven’t discovered fulfilled, otherwise you discovered a typo you need to repair or one thing that really issues you is as a result of it’s far more enjoyable to work on one thing that impacts you personally. So perhaps that little characteristic you’re lacking or that little factor that doesn’t work the way in which you need it, get to that, to repair that, work on that. And that doesn’t actually matter. I imply, that’s definitely not a cURL suggestion. That’s no matter you need to do in Open Supply. It’s a lot better should you begin with one thing that’s close to to your coronary heart. In any other case I’m not a man to provide recommendation. I really feel extra like a lottery winner. Do you’ve any recommendation on what lottery numbers to choose? I don’t, it was lucky for me. I’m undecided I’m the one to inform anybody to not repeat it.

Gavin Henry 00:52:47 Properly, I feel we’ll settle for that, however I really feel you’re downplaying your position dramatically.

Daniel Stenberg 00:52:52 Properly, perhaps, nevertheless it’s actually onerous for me to say what works for me and what doesn’t work for me. I’m making an attempt to run and be within the venture the way in which I’d have appreciated another person to do it. If I used to be a participant within the venture, type of.

Gavin Henry 00:53:07 Yeah. That comes throughout. I imply, your private applies to emails and issues and how one can induct stuff is a extremely good instance. What are among the issues that almost all customers don’t find out about sustaining like a venture, like cURL we’ve talked concerning the help request once more, or is there the rest that goes on behind the scenes that isn’t regular for Open Supply tasks?

Daniel Stenberg 00:53:31 For those who’re in an Open Supply maintainer for a smaller venture, as a result of I feel cURL remains to be a smaller venture, it could be properly used and widespread and identified, nevertheless it’s nonetheless a smaller venture in that. I’m the one one engaged on it full time. So I feel what lots of people could not, should you’re an Open Supply maintainer this, however folks from the skin if individuals are working with different issues, don’t notice how a lot different issues than engaged on code it’s important to do while you’re sustaining a venture. Sustaining the servers, sustaining the mailing lists, doing releases, organising your scripts to replace issues, to do it’s the CI jobs, the all the things else across the venture that must be maintained for it to run easily. I feel lots of people are type of lacking that massive quantity of labor that it’s important to sustain in a venture to simply hold all the things afloat and going ahead easily.

Daniel Stenberg 00:54:31 So I feel it’s generally I spend a variety of time on stuff like that simply sharpening issues across the venture to ensure that it goes ahead properly, however that work isn’t seen in any respect as a result of when all the things works you don’t see what work that went on to ensure that nothing broke. The opposite day, for instance, in a weak second, I upgraded just a little element in my server and the server that runs all of the mailing lists. And in that little second of unhealthy selections, I unintentionally upgraded my Python set up on the server to not characteristic Python two. After which in a single blow, I simply broke a variety of server infrastructure. In order that mailing lists and I run a variety of mailing lists. All of them broke in a single second, type of, and that I needed to spend a number of days restoring Python to set up in order that the mailing record might work once more. And naturally, from the skin, it wasn’t actual. Okay. The breakage was probably seen for a choose few who attempt to use the emailing record.

Gavin Henry 00:55:35 I did truly see that,

Daniel Stenberg 00:55:38 But it surely was nonetheless a variety of work simply to carry up all the things again to look precisely prefer it did earlier than. And for me, I guess I spent 12 hours on that or perhaps extra, and it was a extremely annoying and hard time right here, however yeah from the skin, I didn’t do something on cURL. The whole lot was simply trying the identical manner because it did earlier than

Gavin Henry 00:55:59 It wasn’t on a Friday night after a glass of wine, was it?

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:03 I feel it was truly worse, nevertheless it wasn’t Friday night, nevertheless it was nonetheless it wasn’t a type of selections I did with out even contemplating. After which afterwards, like, oh, what did I do? Oops, this was not good. Then I needed to undergo by it.

Gavin Henry 00:56:20 Yeah. In order that’s an excellent instance. Proper? I’m going to shut off in a sec after which begin wrapping up. However I do know one of many statistics that you simply like to speak about is a lot of command line arguments that you are able to do. I feel it’s 750 or one thing. What are among the bizarre, weird, and new one’s that you simply wish to let anyone find out about?

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:40 I truly added the 245th the opposite day.

Gavin Henry 00:56:44 Oh, wow.

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:44 So we have now 245 and the latest one is what shouldn’t be in a launch but, nevertheless it’s sprint sprint Json.

Gavin Henry 00:56:52 Yeah. There’s been a little bit of noise about that one.

Daniel Stenberg 00:56:54 Yeah, precisely. There there’s been a bit constructive and negatives about it, however this can be a quite simple one. I’ve added it to make it easier for folks to ship and obtain Json. And I feel lots of people have been fairly constructive about it. In order that’ll be enjoyable. Now. I feel a few of my favourite ones which may not be that properly used all the time certainly one of my absolute favourite ones is the sprint sprint libcurl, which is a command line choice that converts the command line to a libcurl code or generates a template code in C for the command line, you wrote. Mainly should you write a command line utilizing cURL, did you do some sort of switch, add, obtain, no matter? And then you definately say, ah, I need to convert this into an software as a substitute that use the libcurl. You run the identical command line and also you do sprint sprint Libcurl instance.C, after which it’ll generate that instance.C for you. With a skeleton code that makes use of slid code to do this very same.

Gavin Henry 00:57:56 I actually want I knew about that one. I simply did that the opposite day. It goes on the mailing record, however I’ll do this and verify issues out.

Daniel Stenberg 00:58:05 Yeah, I feel it’s actually cool. It’s not full, after all, as a result of it’s onerous to transform all of that into C code, precisely? However you get a fairly good begin to base your additional work on no matter you need to do while you need to do a libcurl software. And what’s good is that almost all bindings for libcurl are literally somewhat skinny. Most bindings for libcurl have the identical choices and stuff like that. You may normally pretty simply even convert that C code into, for instance, PHP code or Python code or different binding steroids, as a result of they normally look pretty just like libcurl itself. That’s certainly one of my favorites. One other one which I prefer to level out to folks is the sprint sprint resolve perform, which is a option to just about populate the DNS cache from the command line. So, you may add an IP deal with for a number title on the command line, which is a manner principally what you need to do is should you, for instance, should you kind, cURL instance.com, however you’ve determined to host that instance.com in your native machine, for instance, on native host. And then you definately get an issue with the names as a result of the certificates perhaps received’t match and stuff like that. So, then you’ve an choice for cURL you could say that on this invocation instance.com goes to make use of this explicit IP deal with as a substitute.

Gavin Henry 00:59:33 That’s sensible. As a result of that’s usually considerably tough to do while you’re operating CI jobs or enhancing, et cetera, host and all the things like that?

Daniel Stenberg 00:59:41 Precisely. Or while you had been experimenting otherwise you need to ship in a selected title on that individual IP deal with and stuff like that.

Gavin Henry 00:59:49 It was resolver?

Daniel Stenberg 00:59:50 Resolved.

Gavin Henry 00:59:51 Resolve, proper. Okay, wonderful. So I’m going to wrap up now. Clearly cURL’s a really highly effective instrument, with a robust historical past and world deployment base. If there was one factor {that a} software program engineer ought to bear in mind from our present, what would you prefer it to be?

Daniel Stenberg 01:00:08 I normally preserve that one of many major qualities that made cURL or has made cURL and libcurl succeed is simply persistence to simply carry on engaged on it till it truly works. And that’ll truly succeed. I usually get to listen to from individuals who check out issues to write down the instrument and to say that properly no one’s utilizing it. It doesn’t work and no one is succeeding. I normally then strive to return and see that it took me many, many, a few years with cURL and libcurl until we had a lot of customers. So, I feel if one explicit standards to really succeed with one thing like that is to simply give it sufficient effort and time. So should you simply need to and simply carry on engaged on it, you may achieve the long term. It’s not essentially a direct hit simply because it’s a good suggestion. You simply generally must hold at it.

Gavin Henry 01:01:07 After which was there something that we missed that you simply’d like to speak about or point out?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:12 I might point out that we only recently surpassed 1000 commit authors within the venture. So we had been greater than 1000 folks truly written code a lot into the venture. Typically folks consider me as type of, yeah, I’m the lead developer, however we’re additionally enormous quantity of individuals truly contributed code to.

Gavin Henry 01:01:31 And what are their names?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:34 Properly, we have now the thanks record in GIT and that the thanks additionally contains all contributors. Additionally individuals who have reported bugs and assist out in different methods. And that’s, I feel that’s approaching 2,600 names now. So fairly lots of people who’re serving to out on a regular basis.

Gavin Henry 01:01:51 That’s sensible. The place can folks discover out extra or get in contact?

Daniel Stenberg 01:01:55 The whole lot presently is after all on cURL.SE if you wish to learn up on cURL, we have now this e book on all the things.cURL.dev, which is my e book efforts to doc URL and all the things about me is on daniel.haXX.se. And naturally, I’m on Twitter as again there. And I tweet a variety of cURL stuff none cease, a variety of blabbing.

Gavin Henry 01:02:19 Daniel, thanks for approaching the present. It’s been an actual pleasure. That is Gavin Henry for Software program Engineering Radio. Thanks for listening.

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